The Egoless Orgasm with Devi Ward Erickson
[00:00:00] Introducing Devi Ward Erikson
Dr. Willow: Today we're going to be talking about what it means to f*** your way to enlightenment, and what the heck is enlightenment anyway when it comes to Tantric world.
Announcer: Welcome to the Sex Reimagined Podcast, where sex is shame free and pleasure forward. Let's get into the show.
Dr. Willow: All right, so today we are so blessed and so excited to be here with the one and only Devi Ward Erickson.
She is the founder of the Institute of Authentic Tantra Education. She's been featured as a Tantra healing expert in over 30 different radio and television networks worldwide, including Playboy Magazine, men's Health, and a myriad of other places. She's also been on the show Sexology, which is pretty awesome.
She is super certified in so many different areas, highly, highly trained. And carries such deep, deep wisdom in these ancient arts. So basically Devi knows what she's talking about and as you will see she walks her talk. She is a glowing, radiant queen, and we are so blessed to have her. Yay, welcome.
Devi Ward Erikson: Thank you. Thank you so much, Devi. Thank you. Thank you, thank you.
Leah: Why don't we start off right there. Tell us what enlightenment is to you, Devi.
[00:01:18] How can Sex get us to Enlightenment?
Devi Ward Erikson: Yeah. So enlightenment is freedom from suffering. As far as I know, right? So my llama often talks about enlightenment as a natural state of being. It means being a mature human being free of the five root poisons of anger, attachment, pride, jealousy, and ignorance. And for me, enlightenment means living anchored in the qualities of bliss, equanimity, openness, clarity, and joy.
So it's really to me just about being a happy, whole, fully integrated human being. Free of trauma, free of suffering, free of our own discursive negative thoughts, and just being fully present and fully embodied and living from a place of love and connection.
Leah: And so how does sex us to that? Yeah. That's a beautiful description.
Devi Ward Erikson: Yeah. That's a million dollar question. And that's actually the thing that turned me on to, being trained in Tantra. so, the concept of uniting sexuality with your spirituality was a radical, concept. And I was very curious about how this occurred.
I wanted to know the mechanics. I didn't just want concept and theory. I wanted to know concrete, like how do we get from A to B? So what actually sold me on this idea is, a teaching in the Tibetan Tantric tradition. And that is that at the moment of orgasm, that peak of pleasure the moving pranas in your genitals brush the central channel which is the shumna nadi or the core of the life force in the body. And so at the moment of orgasm those pranas brush the central channel and we get a glimpse of enlightenment. We get a glimpse of our bliss-void nature. So if you think of that moment of orgasm there's no "I" in orgasm, it's egoless. In fact we have to completely surrender the ego in order to fully experience orgasm. That is enlightenment and it's hardwired into the human design. Every human being has access to that whether we know it or not, right, so that is part of the human blueprint. So for me I was like, well shit if that's already hardwired into us how do we build upon that. How can we access that by choice whenever we want, And then how do we build upon it? So instead of having a genital sneeze as an orgasm I have a 10 minute orgasm, a 20 minute orgasm, an hour long orgasm. How do I exist in orgasmic bliss? That's what I wanted to know, and so that's the teaching that led me to this path.
Leah: Beautiful.
Dr. Willow: Oh my God. Love it. I love it.
Leah: I love 'bliss void', I mean what a great way to describe the orgasm. There is a bliss void instead of a blackout, it's like a whiteout. Yeah, and I dig it. Yeah, I might borrow that term
Devi Ward Erikson: Yeah, well I mean it's it's part of the Tibetan Tantric tradition so I don't own it.
Leah: Ok good, Right on.
Devi Ward Erikson: And again Accessible to all of us. It's accessible to every human being.
Dr. Willow: It's so interesting how similar you know it is to the Taoist tradition, the Tibetan, I know you know the Taoist tradition as well. In the Taoistist tradition we call that moment a tiny death where you have no sense of being male or female or Willow or Leah, or Devi .
You have no kind of like, am I this person or that person? All that ego and identification just completely... like everyone listening, next time you have an orgasm try to notice if you can have a sense of self in that moment. Yeah.
Leah: Try to think during orgasm and I bet you can't.
Dr. Willow: Yeah, you really can't.
Leah: It's like the finally you get relief from the mind.
Dr. Willow: And that tiny death, it's the ego death, right? It's that moment where we get to drop into the oneness. So if we can stretch that out, like you're saying, 20 minute, hour long orgasmic bliss, then hot damn. We're sitting in enlightenment for period of time.
Devi Ward Erikson: Well, exactly. And when we rest in that bliss it actually rewires the brain.
Right. So then our whole worldview, this is how we carry it outta the bedroom into our everyday life. Resting in this orgasmic state of expanded consciousness has a physiological effect on the brain. Chemicals are produced and all of that, in my experience, actually heals and repairs the brain. And then we bring that healing and repair into our everyday life.
[00:05:29] Devi's Journey - Healing Sexual Trauma using Bliss
Leah: And there's so much to heal and repair when it comes to our lives as these dualistic seeming human beings. And the traumas that we go through and the childhoods that we all have to survive. Even those with happy childhoods have their elements of having to pinpoint the inflection points that end up shaping the road that they take. And the meaning that they derive from those experiences, which then creates an identity structure. Is that the belief system that I would be most served by? You know, as we over-identify with some painful stuff as a child, that we make a lot of meaning from. I know I have. And I know that a lot of your work, your specialty, is around sexual healing. Could you share more about that, both your story and how your school addresses sexual healing?
Devi Ward Erikson: Yeah, absolutely. So the focus is on sexual healing because that was my journey, because that is how I came to Tantra. It was introduced to me as a path of healing and a path to realize my ultimate nature.
At the time I didn't have a concept of sexual enlightenment, like those two concepts were not married in my brain. I was a monk, right? I had been a monk for a decade.
So the concept of enlightenment was amazing. The concept of like healing from my suffering, that was really amazing. But I didn't understand how my sexuality really fit into that.
And I actually didn't understand how deeply I needed to heal sexually, because that's the thing, in this conditioned existence in mainstream society. What is normal for sex is actually trauma. That's normal, right? So I was coming from this position that I was just sexually normal, and then come to find out that I'm actually sexually traumatized and sexually shut down, even though I was a stripper in my early twenties.
So the path of and the process of sexual healing for me transformed me from the inside out. And it was an embodied experience of using pleasure as medicine, sex as medicine, combined with these yogic methods, these somatic sexual healing practices. And I blew through a lifetime of trauma in a very short period of time by being able to rest in that orgasmic void state while my traumas arose in the center of it. And being able to redirect my focus from the pain of that event to the bliss of this orgasm. So it's like my trauma was arising in a container of bliss. It was really easy to let it go. So that is the brilliance of sexual healing for me, is that it's not like, you know, oh, it's hard and the this and the that, you gotta chip away it with an iceberg and the armor and the whatever. Dude with bliss and orgasm, it melts away.
Dr. Willow: Like there's no more room for the trauma. It's like, let's pack these cells and these tissues with so much bliss and so much good that there's just, there's no more room for the trauma. And then you don't have to go through the story and figure it out and talk about it, be in your head about it.
Leah: You skip decades of therapy.
Devi Ward Erikson: Yeah. You really can.
Dr. Willow: Also just the nervous system shifts. Like I've worked with people who were traumatized at, you know, four years old, two years old, and they go through this shake sometimes, you know, this like absolute reconfiguration of not only the brain pathways but these whole bodies.
Like the shashumnadi gets completely cleansed and purified and they're just a different person the next day. It's so powerful.
Devi Ward Erikson: Isn't that amazing? It completely cleansed and purified with orgasmic bliss. Love it. And these mofos want to try and tell us that like, sex and Tantra don't connect. Like look, not you guys, but I, we hear that in the field. Like, oh no there's no sex in Tantra. I'm like, look, not in my lineage. That's right.
Dr. Willow: Right, right. Well, I love how you marry... I mean you've had such an interesting journey, a stripper to a monk to here you are blending the two. I love how you bring the Tibetan medicine into your Tantric teaching.
I think that's really unique and really, for me, very exciting. I love to geek out on the ancient stuff.
Devi Ward Erikson: So, yeah. Well again, that was the foundation of my training. So I didn't enter Tantra through a workshop or through a class. I had seen Neo Tantra on my radar, I was not interested at all.
Because I didn't understand how what I saw would lead to greater realization. And I was very committed to my path. Again I took vows, I was a monk, I was committed to the realization of my ultimate nature in this human
And so for me when I encountered the Tantric teachings they were through this particular lineage. I was trained under the umbrella with the blessing and permission of a lama under this lineage of the Shangpa Kagyu tradition. And so the way Tantra integrated into my system was as a form of medicine. And that is the way my llama teaches Tantra. He teaches non-sexual Tantra to the public, well... yeah, he teaches non-sexual Tantra the public. But he teaches Tantra as medicine and as a tool for healing and transforming and realizing our ultimate nature.
Dr. Willow: So powerful. And do you have any fun, like I'm sure you have a million miracle stories, but where you've really seen pleasure orgasmic energy sexual energy heal someone's physical ailments and body.
[00:10:54] Sexual Healing using the Tibetan 5 Elements Tantric Tradition
Devi Ward Erikson: So what the most most tangible experiences that I see are particularly for people with vulvas and vaginas who have a lot of numbness and lack of sensation. And so what we've observed through the years, and these are always like incredible celebrations, is a woman will come and come to work with us or one of our graduates, and she's completely shut down. Kat has little to no sensation, let's say in her clitoris. And through doing the practices, the non-sexual five element Tantra practices, and then weaving that into the sexual pleasure practices that we teach, in a very short period of time sensation begins to arise. And then through that when they're able to access sensation then we build upon that until that sensation becomes pleasure. And then again in a very short period of time they're able to experience bliss and orgasm through sexual stimulation. It's like their body opens up, the channels open up and then they're able to reclaim their birthright to orgasm and pleasure again in a very short period of time. So that's not necessarily like correcting an illness so to speak but it is correcting. Like if you've gone 30 years and you've never felt sensation in your clitoris to within a matter of four to eight weeks all of a sudden you're having clitoral orgasms that is tremendous. And that is a story that we hear over and over and over again
Leah: Can you say a little bit more about the process? It sounds like there's genital massage but what are the other elements and concepts that you're using to facilitate the movement or the turn on or the neuro pathways syncing up between those channels? So that you can go from being numb for 30 years and feeling nothing to actually having sensation to the point that six weeks later you're going into full on bliss. What other elements are you bringing to the table regarding that?
Devi Ward Erikson: The energy body yoga of Tibetan Five Element Tantra. So that is the emphasis and that is the foundation of everything that we teach. So in this system of healing the energy body is considered senior or superior to the physical. And so if we're able to access the energy body we can catalyze change on the physical level.
We work specifically with the five element teachings and the five elements in this tradition are: earth, water, fire, air, and space.
And each of the five elements is an antidote to one of the five root poisons of human emotion which are: anger, attachment, pride, jealousy, and ignorance.
So by working with these yogic methods of meditation so we we start with a non-sexual energy body yoga first. And so doing sitting meditation with visualization, chanting, mantra, and engaging with the energy body directly. Working with each element and its corresponding energy center to purify blocks and obstacles in the channels and to purify those root poisons. That clears the pathway and creates a fertile ground for a stable foundation to then layer the somatic sexual healing practices.
So they work so quickly because we're starting with the energy body and clearing. I call it like sending in the ground troops to begin that clearing process first. And then we add the physical yoga on top of it. So the physical yogas consist of breath self-stimulation.
Yes, absolutely genital massage but then we also have things that aren't necessarily a massage, but just self-stimulation practices. Different strokes integrating the breath at certain peaks of pleasure to ride those waves. But then in the center of it we drop the five element teachings as well.
So this is actually why we named our modality Authentic Tantra because the sexual teachings of the Tibetan Five Elements are some of the most authentic and original teachings for how to harness human sexual energy and use it for healing and transformation. And so that's what we teach our students to do; so first you build a stable foundation with clearing the energy body and cultivating mindfulness and presence. Then we work with the physical yoga practice so that you can start working with the winds and the movement of energy in your body. And then we layer on top of that the again the visualization and the energy body yoga of Tibetan Five Elements sexual Tantra. And that's why it goes so fast because it's working holistically.
Leah: Love it. Gorgeous.
Dr. Willow: Yeah, I love how the Tibetan... I always have this theory coming from the Chinese medicine background and also knowing a little bit about ayurvedic and so then also bridging the Taoist sexology and the Tantra and I'm always thinking, gosh it must all come from Tibet, right? Because that's like the originator of all of this philosophy and all of this medicine. And then India took their version and China took their version. And so I love that's where that authentic Tantra, the name of it really comes from that original place. How do you harness this energy and the sensation and open yourself up to more experience in your body?
Devi Ward Erikson: Exactly, and I studied Tibetan medicine a little bit and from what I understand there's so much overlap because they were having medical conferences in like 500 / 600 / 700 ad where people from China, Tibet, & India, and Persia were all coming together and exchanging and sharing information in medicine. So there's a lot of overlap because of that.
Leah: So can you say something more about pleasure and medicine? Like you've talked about it healing quickly, healing the psyche of trauma. And moving that outta the system and being able to go from being non orgasmic to orgasmic. What else is the bridge that makes this medicine?
Devi Ward Erikson: Yeah so the other component for me is a physiological response that occurs in the body when we experience pleasure. And so I'm sure Dr. Willow you can speak about this much more, it's been a long time since I've written or lectured on all the different chemicals that are released in the body during pleasure. But it's healthy for us, like bottom line, pleasure is medicine. It really is, it's medicine.
Human beings are wired for pleasure, right. And a very simple example is like if you like something you keep doing it. If you don't like something you don't want to do it. You know same as food, It's like how we evolved over millennia is by following pleasure. If something tastes good, it was safe to eat. If something was stinky or nasty or bitter or didn't taste good, generally it was poisonous. It's very, very simple. So pleasure good, pain yucky. Or you know, try to avoid it, have aversion there.
But it's literally wired in to human physiology that pleasure is medicinal. Pleasure is healing for us; releasing oxytocin, dopamine, serotonin. It increases your immune system. Like all of that scientific stuff that just goes back to; yes pleasure is healthy for us. That's what it is to be human.
Dr. Willow: It's so simple. And if we can drop into the simplicity of it, you know, I'm sure we can find all kinds of science to back it up, but really all we need to do is experience it. And when you're experiencing it on a daily basis, on a regular basis then you don't need any convincing, you don't need to read studies. You can see the difference in your own body and your own life.
Devi Ward Erikson: And I think one of the greatest, you know tragedies of the society is conditioning us to fear pleasure and to fear our bodies. Right. That's the whole like patriarchal blah di blah. That's that we talk about, conditioning us away from our own intuitive power and our own intuitive wisdom and pleasure is a huge role in that. When it feels good in the body, that's a yes. When it feels yucky, that's a no. But we've been taught and trained in the society to override that.
And so that has been a source of trauma for many of us. Overriding that intuitive knowing in our own bodies has led some of us down paths that we wish we hadn't gone down.
Leah: Yeah. And that conditioning can create these unconscious reactions to life, you know, where we become defensive or we become jealous, like you said, or angry like you said.
These are reactions that aren't our choosing, they were dropped into our little bodies. And half the time we don't even know why we react the way that we react.
And frankly, you don't need to know why. You just have to do the piece that shakes it out. So that you don't have to keep feeling angry and keep feeling jealous that that there's hope you can break those patterns in that conditioning.
Devi Ward Erikson: Yeah, absolutely. And there's so many different pathways to that.
So for me, the five element teachings are the core pathway for me because they directly antidote those five root poisons. And after 13 years of doing those specifically I can tell you they work. I have a lot less poison in my mind and body than I did when I first started. And same with my students and everyone in my universe. Right.
The healing happens so quickly but then layered over years and years and years it's like, wow I've come a long way in 13 years. Right? The beginning of the journey it seemed like I was going at lightning speed. And as we continue to go it just increases and the results become even more and more pronounced.
And so yeah, healing those traumas, those microtraumas, and macro traumas that we've experienced in life that keep us contained in that loop of pain and suffering. And finding ways to antidote that, and break through that, to restore human capacity for connection and pleasure and joy. And that to me is the goal of Tantra.
Dr. Willow: Yeah, and it's really such a layered process. I mean, the basics of what you're teaching this five element system is like, you could take that and be at any place in your journey of sexual awakening and just get so much out of it. No matter where you're at, you've just starting out or if you're at a level that the three of us are at, or some other level that's crazy you can still go so much deeper with what's possible for your own healing and evolution with the simplest stuff. Which is what is so powerful about it.
Devi Ward Erikson: Exactly. That's the beauty of lineage based teachings. They can meet you wherever you're at.
Leah: Can you give us like, because I mean right now we're looking at you, and you're this beautiful, vivacious, you radiate, right? You know, you can feel the embodied knowledge, number one, like you can tell when someone knows their stuff because it's in their body. And then it comes from there and they can share it from here.
But I imagine that's not where you started. So like, what is the picture of Devi before she had this transformation?
Devi Ward Erikson: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for that. So, yeah definitely I was not who I am today. I would never have conceived of being where I am today, it's like a whole alternate reality right.
[00:21:30] Growing up with Racism, Doemestic Violence and Sexual Abuse
Devi Ward Erikson: So so yeah, so my story and I was born in 1974 and I'm biracial and black, I claim both. And I was born five years after interracial marriage became legal in the United States.
And I share this because this was very important for my formative years. Number one, five years before I was born,I was not legally allowed to exist. So, you know, just thinking of that like not being allowed to exist.
Leah: And I think conceptually we think that was so much further away than it actually was.
Yeah. Yeah. So, so just because the law changed doesn't mean that the cultural climate changed or society changed. And so I experienced a tremendous amount of racial violence as a very little tiny child.
Devi Ward Erikson: You know, we think we're,you know, 21 people were murdered in Texas, 19 little babies, 19 little fourth graders, and they're tiny, looking at pictures of them. They're tiny, right? Yes. The little tiny babies. And that's what I was experiencing at that age. I was experiencing people shouting, you know, racial curses and racial slurs at me, kids, my own age, adults.
Like that was like walking home from school every day. That's the trauma that I had to live through just as a little third grader, fourth grader, fifth grader, a little tiny baby. So that shaped me and, wounded me deeply, I will say. They call it internalized racial inferiority now. Now there's a name for it, but at the time I was just fucked up.
And then layering on top of that, I was sexually abused as a child by one of my extended family members. And so I had that trauma wired into me.
And then I had ,you know, both two traumatized parents grew up in a home of domestic violence, intense domestic violence. And so then I had that trauma wired into me.
So by the time I was a young adult I had survived several suicide attempts. I was just a mess. And this is like in the late 1980s early 1990s. And so the world of trauma-informed awareness is not what it is today. We had no fucking clue. We were bumbling around in the dark, I just thought it was a head case. I didn't know that I was traumatized.
And so I tell this story often to give context, and to give people hope. When I was around 20 that whole age is blurry for me because so much was happening. And I was a stripper in Detroit So it's not like being a stripper in Vegas. I was a stripper right on Michigan Avenue and Eight Mile with Eminem, you know in Detroit, Woodward Avenue It was not pretty.
Leah: Wow You grew up in in Michigan?
Devi Ward Erikson: I was born in Washington DC and I moved around a lot but I was in Michigan from the age of 12 to 22/23ish.
Leah: Okay, I grew up in Michigan too. I didn't know that.
Devi Ward Erikson: Where abouts?
Leah: East Lansing,
Devi Ward Erikson: Oh!
Leah: So Michigan State University, kind of grew up as a little campus kid.
Devi Ward Erikson: All right. All right. Yeah, we're down in Plymouth, Canton, Ann Arbor area, and then Detroit.
So when I was 19 and I was stripping in Detroit, I was overwhelmed by my own trauma. I was devastated. It was the darkest period of my life and there was no hope. And I sat down with a razor blade and a gallon of wine. And I was really committed to ending my life. It was my first, what I would call serious suicide attempt. And needless to say that did not occur through the grace of God and the love of my mother, I will say. And that was my bottom because for me the idea and concept of suicide had always been my plan. And in that moment when I was 100% committed to taking my life and when I got to that point I couldn't you know jump from that ledge, I couldn't boundry whatever it is. I couldn't do it. I knew that I could no longer psych myself out and pretend like that was plan B. I knew that I needed to commit entirely to living, and so I did.
Leah: Wow.
Devi Ward Erikson: And I refused to live in suffering. I refused to live in pain. I knew that there was something else and I was determined to find it. So that began my spiritual journey. That began my spiritual seeking.
And at the time, again, there wasn't somatic therapy. I mean, I had some talk therapy, I did some breath work but none of it was getting to the root of the suffering. So I devoted myself and I devoted my life to God. And I moved to Hawaii, became a monk, moved to North Carolina, went through training.
And that was my life plan. I was going to be a monk and travel the country and travel the world teaching meditation. And then I found my way to Kauai and after a couple of years there I encountered Tibetan Five Element Tantra and here I am today.
Dr. Willow: Wow. What a journey.
Leah: What a great story. Wow I'm sure there's viewers that can really relate with parts of your journey and how deep that despair and isolation and deep loneliness. You know we've got that place inside of ourselves that really truly covers up that feeling of Not being worthy. We are not deserving of a body.
Devi Ward Erikson: Yeah.
Leah: You know all these things that causes us to think about wanting out.
Devi Ward Erikson: Yeah.
Leah: And we choose all sorts of things to try to distract us from feeling that kind of pain.
Devi Ward Erikson: Yeah.
Leah: And what a beautiful example of choosing to live and then like being tenacious for that, you know, like going for it.
Devi Ward Erikson: Yeah.
Leah: Congratulations
Dr. Willow: We're so glad you did not succeed at your commitment, to end your own life. And that's true for anyone who's in that state you know. I've definitely been there myself and it's it's such an opportunity to look. I feel like those darkest recesses of our souls, that's some serious medicine in there. So if you can go in and extract those shadows and really look at them and really be with them, you can become like Devi. Like you can become this glowing, amazing like soul in the world who walks their talk and has studied, you know, prolifically and has become somebody who knows how to shed grace on this wild world.
You when the shootings happen I was talking to my mom and she's like, what am I supposed to do? I don't have an answer.
I'm like, well I think I have an answer. And it's the same answer that you have Devi, is just like look deeper. Like go inside to those places that make you want to end your life, and end it all, and just get close to them. Get to know them, don't try to get rid of them or get away from them. Get to know them, there's a lot of power there.
Devi Ward Erikson: Yeah The you know the concept of the wounded healer.
Dr. Willow: Exactly.
Devi Ward Erikson: And there's a concept and I'm not sure where it comes from for it's in my mind that it's Tibetan medicine but that could be incorrect. But it's like, the deeper the suffering No it's NVC it's the deeper the pain the greater the need the deeper the suffering the more potential for power and healing and transformation.
And so, one thing that you said, Leah, that really resonated is the isolation of those moments. And so what, for me, the thing that kept me from doing the deed was the, knowing of what it would do to my mother.
So it was actually that thread and that cord of love. Even though my mother didn't and I didn't have a good relationship at all, I could not leave her with that suffering. And so she was my lifeline in that moment and she was what kept me here and in the body. And so, you know, I didn't cut my wrist. I didn't take that final cut because of connection, because of the power of love.
And when we feel so isolated, part of that is disconnected and not having any resources for support. So I would just implore you, anyone who is in a deep dark night of the soul is reach out for support and connection.
Because connection is the medicine. Connection is what is gonna help us navigate these dark hell holes that we may need to go through in our lives. But we must have support to do it.
Leah: Yeah. That's interesting, I had that moment, that inflection point moment when Oprah shared her story about being sexually abused as a kid. Because I thought I was all alone in my story.
And although I didn't have a relationship to Oprah. Of which, I want one. she was this person who I watched every day after school and I adored. And so to have someone who I admired so much, who had this huge stage reveal a secret, and watching her physical experience as she opened up about this, it was like I suddenly, I knew I wasn't alone.
I didn't have her to talk to. it took me years before I talked to anyone else afterward but it was like even someone on tv who you can relate with, who you don't even know but who's sharing your story. Gave me like, it bought me years. In order to be able to finally go to like open up this big, deep, isolating secret, I really thought I was the only one that this was happening to and that naivety, when you're... you just don't know... you don't know isolation just keeps you so small.
What Dey is saying is reach for connection. Because as human beings, we thrive with the feeling of belonging.
And you came into this body to live in this body no matter how painful it can be. And pleasure is your birthright and pleasure is medicine. And so just keep aiming for the pleasure without attachment to the pleasure. But keep aiming for all the things that bring beauty in awe and experiences of love into your life.
And yeah, it really just comes back to like our life satisfaction is very much connected for feeling like we belong somewhere. And so that's an invitation for all of us to create belonging for others. It's not just the job of those feeling isolated to reach for connection and to reach for belonging.
We can all broaden and start to see each other and be there for each other and invite connection and community and belonging and non separation. Because we've really been through a difficult time of feeling separate from each other. And feeling lost. And we've got some repair to do.
Devi Ward Erikson: Yeah, we do.
We do. And I thank you so much for sharing that story, Leah. So it just, it gives me shivers and chills and just touch my heart so deeply.
[00:32:43] Racism as a Source of Trauma
Leah: Thank you. So how do you think we can, as a culture, as a community of loving beings, what do we need to do to start healing the divide between each other?
What are your insights, being a woman of color, can we start to do that can make lasting changes, and can bring love and connection among ourselves? You have any ideas, thoughts?
Devi Ward Erikson: Yeah. We have to do our homework because healing starts here, right? So in our tradition we talk about inside, outside, same. So the healing and purification and clearing that I do here also emanates externally. It also shows up in my outside world.
And I can only connect this deeply and intimately with another human being as I'm willing to connect with myself. So I could not be in healthy relationship with others until I had healthy relationship with myself. And that's, to me, a lifelong journey. I'm continuing to cultivate deeper levels of health and wellness with my relationship to myself and my emotions and, you know, my experience of life.
And so the most, I would say the predominant thing that I see in terms of healing racial divides is doing our internal work and also committing ourselves to understanding internalized racial oppression. So the other thing about our school is that we are a declared anti-racist organization. And what that means is we prioritize understanding racism as a source of trauma.
And we prioritize understanding how internalized racial oppression presents itself in people of color and white bodied people. And understanding that dynamic is always in play. It's a very nuanced dynamic and it's always in play in any interaction. And so being able to understand how internalized racial inferiority shows up in me in relationship to white people helps me interact with white people better. So that there's more peace and there's more clarity and there's no more flow.
So I'm not getting caught up in hung up in my own internalized sense of worthlessness because of my cultural conditioning. That's the thing to understand about, you know, racism, is that it's not personal. It's systemic. We live in a system of white supremacy. We live in a system of racial oppression. That is a fact. It's undeniable, particularly for people of color.
And so understanding that racism is not personal, right? It's not about me. It's not about you, who we are as human beings. It's an operating system that operates in our psyche and in our culture, a hundred percent of the time, 24 -7.
So I can say, I think of it as like decoding, right? So on our website we have our anti-racist covenant. So what it means to us to be an anti-racist organization. And on that page we also have the manifestations of internalized racial oppression. And they fall into two categories, internalized racial inferiority and internalized racial superiority.
And so they're there on the website in like five bullet lists for everybody to see so that we can copy and paste them and use them in our interaction. So when we do clash and there is conflict, we can be like, okay, so what was going on in this conflict is you are manifesting internalized racial superiority in points one, two, five, seven, and eight, and I was manifesting internalized racial inferiority and points 3, 4, 7, and two. Or however it goes. Right.
So it's something that we're constantly examining inside of ourselves. And what I've learned, what we've done, our school has done our training with the People's Institute for Survival and beyond.
They've been doing anti-racism work for 40 years in the United States to survive. That's why it's called Survival and Beyond, so that black people can survive.
Leah: It's the institute of what?
Devi Ward Erikson: People's Institute for Survival and beyond, pisab.org is their name.
Leah: Okay. And we will also link your page to this on the show notes so everyone will have access to it.
Devi Ward Erikson: Awesome. Awesome. So working with them we are actually doing a workshop with them this weekend. And what I loved is the congruency between this ideology of living I in a anti-racist consciousness and how that overlapped with non-dualistic thinking, non-dualistic practices.
Dr. Willow: Makes so much sense.
Devi Ward Erikson: It's about breaking free of this concept of duality, but at the same time being able to observe how it arises. So it's both, it's like ultimate and relative reality at the same time. Being able to hold both is true,
Leah: Right, yes. Because just switching one for the other. There's a big piece of bypass that doesn't actually clean up what the sensations that are happening that are at war. We want to have this idea of the God that is seen through my eyes is the God that is seeing through your eyes. And if we can just be in that, everything will be okay.
And it's beautiful and it's lovely, but we got a little piece of work to do to really take ownership of that reality. And to see that and to know that is true.
Devi Ward Erikson: Exactly. To bridge that gap. And I love that you mentioned bypassing, right? Because you know, we get; oh, if you don't focus on racism, it doesn't exist.
Well, it doesn't exist for you, but it certainly does for me. It's been shaping my psyche since I was born. Right. That's why I give that example of I was born, I wasn't allowed to be alive, five years before I was born. You think that didn't shape me? You think that wasn't traumatic for me?
Leah: Right, right. How powerful.
Dr. Willow: I love how you give voice to it and just really you know, clarify like we all do need to heal as individuals and then there's this collective systemic, it's almost like a mold that we've gotta clean up, you know? It's and it's got its little tendrils into all these corners of the of human beings and of the world psyches and bodies. And it's powerful.
Leah: You know what? It's reminding me of another interview and one of the concepts that came up was in a sexual situation and, you know, an opportunity for exploration arises.
And the answer is, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I've sat in a lot of, as I was coming of age, I've been thinking about this. I sat in a lot of, I don't know. And although I don't know was true, I didn't actually have another answer. There was a weak place. My I don't know was presented in a way of; you tell me, you try something out and I'll tell you if it works for me or not, and what a setup that is.
Because it's basically giving over to someone else; Here, you tell me what's right and when you get it wrong, you're gonna be the one that gets to be responsible for getting it wrong. And not me the person who doesn't know.
And so to be able to go I'm gonna phrase that differently. I don't know, but I'm willing to find out. Ugh, I don't know, and I'm scared to find out. I don't know, will you help me? I don't know yet.
Yes. You know, it's a whole nother way of going; I'm gonna be responsible for my not knowing. I'm not gonna give it o over up to someone else to do the work and then to take all the responsibility for me when they get it wrong.
And I remember like doing that specifically sexually. It was like, Hey, what do you like? You know, someone wanting to pleasure me and please me, and me going, I don't know, try something, I'll tell you if I like it. And that being the socially acceptable answer in my cultural viewpoint.
Devi Ward Erikson: Well, I mean it's like that's the demand put on us as heterosexual, cisgendered women of our generation. Like you best not know what you want and bed only sluts do.
Leah: And That's right.
Devi Ward Erikson: Unless you're married.
Leah: That's right. Right, right.
Devi Ward Erikson: So like it was a survival mechanism for us to not know what we liked in bed.
Leah: Yeah. It was expected.
Dr. Willow: And we're here to change that.
Leah: So many layers. So many layers. It's really exciting.
[00:40:54] What else is Juicy at work these Days?
Dr. Willow: It’s powerful. What's one thing that's going on in your work right now, Devi, that's like really up for you and really lighting you up and really exciting you?
Leah: What's do you see an exciting.
Devi Ward Erikson: Whoa. Gosh, there's so many, there's so many things. So I will say that we, something that's really juicy for me right now is we launched a Membership Program. And what I really love about that is it really meets needs for accessibility for a larger population. And it meets needs for community building to be able to connect together regularly and frequently. And and it's just been fun. Meets needs for pleasure and joy.
And so, you know, part of our anti-racist ideology in the organization has been to make some of our public teachings more accessible because, you know, again, we're coming outta covid, there's been a lot of job loss. There's you know, systemic issues like all sorts of things. So to be able to offer Tibetan Five Element Tantra the wisdom, and the medicine of this wisdom, I'll say in a way that makes it more accessible to people who are in dire straits, has really, really been congruent with my view of anti-racism.
Because anti-racism isn't just about people of color, it's about our entire society. And how these systems of oppression affect all of us to our detriment. And so that's been really exciting and juicy. The membership program is ongoing. And again, it makes it very affordable and very accessible for people to tap into our teachings and continue to uh, I'm gonna say dine on them. Munch on them because as we all know, tantra's a lifelong path.
It's not one workshop, it's not one class. This is a path of personal healing and spiritual realization. And so consistency, practice, diligence, all of that is what leads to these amazing transformative results. And so for people to continue having access and continue being able to absorb the medicine is really juicy for me.
And then the thing that I've seen from that is oh my God, like again, the results. We had one of our students who, like, when she first signed on, she was like, I'm so grateful. I'm single moms, financially struggling, blah, blah, blah. She started doing some of the elemental meditation practices and within two weeks she's like, oh my God. Sold this house or sold this property. I've got money now. I'm feeling more supported.
You know, it's not like everything changes overnight, but you get like fast results. That's pretty fast results.
Leah: It's amazing how fast it can go.
Devi Ward Erikson: Exactly. It's amazing how fast it can go. So seeing magic arise. And then also from that, people are being introduced to these methods at a very, low risk way to see if they integrate and see if they're right for their body and their spiritual path.
Because as you know, like there's many different branches and traditions of Tantra and not everybody's suitable for every branch. And this lineage is very specific. And so I love people being introduced to these methods and being able to get a taste of them and experience, experience the results for themselves, and then determine if this is a path that they wanna follow long term and eventually become a certified practitioner.
So we've had a boost in the interest in our certification program. Right. And it's just really enriching and delicious.
Dr. Willow: It's also really digestible for them, who already have like kids and family and, trying to just maintain. Like trying to just survive, for somebody who's in that place in their life. You know, it can, the thing of doing Tantra is like, I don't have time.
Like I don't have time to get together with my partner and have a two hour intimacy date. Are you kidding me? I have so much to do and kids to put to bed. And so giving them a taste, giving them a, you know, an introductory, I love that membership. Fantastic. So, so exciting. We'll have to put a link for that as well.
[00:44:47] Becoming a Tibetan 5 Element Tantra Teacher
Leah: Will you share a little bit about your certification process? What if someone does feel called to do this work and wanna be able to support other being with it? What is your certification process look like? And then what is it that your graduates do, you know, professionally using this?
Devi Ward Erikson: Yeah, great question. Thank you for that. So I'm very proud because our certification program is actually accredited by the Canadian government.
Leah: Hey Canada!
Devi Ward Erikson: Yeah. Yay. So we are accredited by the Ministry of Education advanced Skills and vocational Training Branch of blahdie, blahdie, blah. It's very colonial. I can't think of all the words.
But what it means is we went through a yearlong process of their reviewing our curriculum and ensuring all our ducks were in a row, so to speak, and ensuring that we were able to provide the services that we market for and advertise and ensure that students going through our training program would receive the skillset that we promised them.
And they said, yep A+ stamp of approval, there you go. And now we get to report to them every year and pay them lots of money. Um, so our certification process is actually a two year training program.
So phase one is what we call our Tantra Mastery Training. And that is a one-on-one personal coaching program that takes you really deep into both the sexual and non-sexual application of Tibetan Five Element Tantra.
And if you're introduced to it, let's say through our Membership Program, and you're like, oh, this is delicious I want to eat more. Then the next step is the phase one, the Tantra Mastery, so that you can have more of an experience and experience more embodiment and more enrichment and more connection to the methods.
And again, determine if you really want to go, if you really wanna go the whole way. And then once your phase one is complete, you're eligible for phase two.
And so phase two is an 11 month training that starts the first business day of January and every calendar year.
And so that's an 11 month program that consists of four modules. I won't go in into depth here. Uh, but at the end of that, then you are certified. We're also affiliated with the American College of Sexologists International. So all of our graduates also are eligible to receive the additional designation as a Certified Sexologist through our certification program.
Leah: Great.
Dr. Willow: Fantastic.
Devi Ward Erikson: And our graduates are considered practitioners of natural healing by the Canadian government.
Leah: Wow. That's so cool. That's fantastic.
Dr. Willow: Yeah, well done. You have really set up an empire. I love it. So fantastic. Good for you.
Leah: And so how do your how do those graduates apply that teaching in their own businesses?
Do they have a private practice? Is it a teaching classes type of thing? Is it a mix of the two?
Devi Ward Erikson: Yeah, all of the above. I would say. So some people already have an established coaching business or massage therapy or healing or integrative medicine business, and they add the Tantra on top of it or they weave it into their business. And that's something that we really celebrate and really encourage. And we've seen that our graduates who already have an existing platform in place do really well adding this to it.
Also people who just, like, I just wanna be a Tantra teacher. That's, you know, that's it. We train our instructors to be coaches uh, to teach classes, workshops, personal coaching sessions, women, men, couples, non-binary, like all the whole shebang. So that you can share and teach your Tantra however you want.
We do have some practitioners who are also body workers as well. And so they weave the Tantra into their body work as well. Uh, we support our practitioners.
Like my understanding of Tantra, the way it was taught to me, is that when you receive the teachings and they begin to work inside of you, your emanation of Tantra is gonna be unique to you.
And that is a critical, that is a key component and a critical piece. So I wanted our graduates to be able to use their Tantra in the way that best worked for them, so that I'm teaching you in this particular way with this particular format. But what I want you to do is integrate these methods and make them your own, and then you transmit these teachings and the flavor and the style that works best for you.
Does that make sense?
Dr. Willow: Totally. I love it. That's how we teach too. Like here's the foundation & the medicine and now you make it your own. You create your own pathway with it. It's because then it's then it's really emanating further out. It's rippling out into the world, into their students in the most authentic way, which is the name of it. The Authentic Tantra education, so really powerful.
Devi Ward Erikson: Well, yeah, and I love that because like my llama could never have imagined in a million years that I would be doing this with a Tantra. He's just like, let me teach you, do this, don't do that. Focus on this, don't focus. You know, like, yes, blah, blah, blah. He, look, he would've never imagined in a million years that I moved to Canada and start a school
Dr. Willow: And he never would've come with all the experience that you've been through from even before you were born, just all the pieces of your journey have made you the exceptional guide and teacher that you are today.
[00:50:04] Devi's Generous Free Offer
Leah: Which leads into your generous free offer to help people get started on their own journey.
Devi is gifting you with a Free introduction to Authentic Tantra so that you can have a delicious appetizer into this this five elements world. Is there anything you wanna say about that?
Devi Ward Erikson: Yeah, so our Free Introduction to Authentic Tantra introduces you to our foundation, which are the four pillars of Healing.
So the four pillars of healing are: meditation, movement, connection, and pleasure. And so the authentic Tantra modality teaches tools and methods that fall under each of these four pillars.
And so the meditations obviously are the Tibetan five element teaching. So in this free intro, you'll get a uh, whatever, a tutorial on what those are and how they work.
So I draw this fun diagram of the energy body and how the five element energy body practices work to heal and clear, purify and enrich your entire energy body, and then therefore your physical body.
And then in one of the last videos, I offer a five step solo sexual healing session using some of the methods that we talked about.
And so, it's a really wonderful, in my opinion, it's a very wonderful intro and it comes with practical, concrete tools that you can begin using in your life immediately. So that's that free intro.
Dr. Willow: It sounds like such a like a good, safe, okay, you can try this on. Like, if you've always been what the hell is Tantra? I've heard it. Does it just mean you're having sex with a lot of different people in a room together? What is this stuff? This is very foundational. It's very tangible, digestible, this free gift that Devi's offering so Devidefinitely take advantage of it.
Devi Ward Erikson: Yeah. Thank you.
Leah: Thank you so much for being with us today.
Devi Ward Erikson: Oh, it's such a pleasure. It's such pleasure. Yeah. I'm so grateful. Thank you.
Announcer: Now it's time for our favorite part. The dish.
[00:52:15] Let's Dish on Devi
Leah: Welcome, welcome back. It is Sex Reimagined, and we just got to sit down with the beautiful, the talented, the amazing Devi Ward Erickson.
Dr. Willow: Yeah. She really has created such a talented and driven woman. And has really created such an opportunity for those who are interested in Tantra to dive into some of the the ancient wisdom around it. Bringing in the Tibetan five elements to Tantric practice and wisdom.
I mean, she's studied with monks. I loved her whole thing. She went from a stripper in Detroit of all places, that's kinda hardcore. Stripper in Detroit to a monk, just like teaching meditation and just really deep into that world to kind of bringing forth this beautiful offering of learning Tantra through the lens of Tibetan Buddhism.
Leah: Yeah, it made me really wanna go dive deeper with her and learn about these this five element practice. Like practicing Tantra through that particular lens. I found it really intriguing and interesting. And I love all of the work she's done to have it be seen as a valid course of study, you know?
That like the Canadian government has backed up and validated it as an institution. I just feel so, I mean, I have no reason to feel proud of her, but I do feel a sense of like, yeah, like she's doing it!
Dr. Willow: I'm proud of her. She's worked hard for it. She's come a long way.
She told us a story of her own dark night of the soul where she was about to end her life, take her life. And if any of you have been there, I myself have, and if you've been on that moment where you've got the knife to your wrist or you've got the razor blade there or the pills nearby and you're just really over it, you're like what is my worth? There is no worth here. I have a zero, less than zero, none.
And so to climb out of that darkness to where she is at now is really inspiring to witness. And for Lee and I have brought up a little insecurity and we were chatting about that later, just like, we've both been on this path for a long time as well. And the beauty of it is that we're all in different places with it.
We're all and it's all powerful and it's all worthy.
Leah: I think what Willow is alluding to, I know I can speak for myself, is why aren't I as accomplished? Why do I feel like I'm not as far along like, God, she's so quick. Like she's just so fast in her ability to communicate and articulate and message clearly, what she has to say, what she's offering, what's important. Like I just kind of was just sitting there going, oh, she's so cool.
Dr. Willow: She is so cool. You know, it's funny, this is my second tele summit interview with Devi Ward and I felt the same way the first time too. I was like, she is just really a rockstar and so cool. And who am I, and where am I, and what am I doing? I had my own insecurities come up back then too.
That was like, I don't know, seven or eight years ago. It was a long time ago. And so it's just really interesting doing all of these interviews. You know, some people you're like, oh, I aspire to be like you. It's just a golden arrow. It's just a golden arrow pointing us to what we truly want. What we really desire. And we have the ability to create that. So, you know, it's gonna look different for everyone, but nobody can do Devi's work the way Devi does it. And so what she brings to the table is so unique and so valuable for those who need her medicine.
So it's just it's an opportunity for us to drop into the truth of the fact that there are so many different kinds of people walks of life on this planet. And anyone who is looking into evolving their sexuality, evolving their self as a human being through the avenue of their sexuality, there is a guide for you out there.
There is the perfect teacher out there for you.
Leah: Well, and it's like another thing of just going get over yourself you're not a fucking snowflake. You know? Like, no one's a little fucking unicorn. So when you get kind of in that comparison place, it's a beautiful chance to just sort of laugh at yourself and not take yourself so seriously.
Dr. Willow: It's so true. It's so true.
Leah: And there's not anyone who doesn't compare themselves to somebody else, especially in their industry.
Dr. Willow: Absolutely.
Leah: These things are gonna arise. You know, one of the things that was interesting is Devi and I were both featured in a movie called Sexology.
Okay. I never even looked at the movie. I have a tendency to like not wanna look at myself after filming something. I just know I'm gonna pick it apart and it's gonna be a brutal shame filled experience. And I don't really like putting myself through that. I know that's not nice. You know, as my husband would say, be nice to my friend, when I'm being hard on myself. You better be nice to my friend. She's not best friend.
Dr. Willow: Love Matt.
Leah: I know, it was so sweet. He's so right. And so, like, I don't even know how much of my little interview is in the movie. I did look it up because I wanted to see if I was at all accredited in the movie to see if I even made it in the movie.
Evidently I did. My name is up there, but my sense my name has changed I went in and edited a few of the points, which you're allowed to do.
So, and that's when I noticed, oh, like Devi I think was a pretty big player in this movie and I had no idea. So now I wanna watch it mainly cause I wanna watch her.
Dr. Willow: Because I wanna watch it.
Leah: You know, when she mentioned that she knew that I was also a part of it, then that made me think, oh, maybe I really am in it. And I don't know how much or why she would've ever thought of me or remembered me. I was also 60 pounds heavier. I remember being really insecure.
It was during a rather difficult time around my body image issues, which someday we'll probably hear all about. Oh my, my Little Journey.
Dr. Willow: That's a whole podcast coming.
Leah: Yeah. That's a whole, that's a whole podcast.
Dr. Willow: Leah's journey.
Leah: Leah's freaking journey. So anyways, it was loaded, it was kind of a loaded time in my life. And when there was a recognition in that I was really caught off guard. It was just, it happened right at the very end of the interview. Probably slipped most people's notice, but obviously it didn't slip mine.
It was a gulp moment. I was just like, oh, somebody might have seen me somewhere and I might hate what it is, you know? So again, there's that like insecurity, that thing of going, God, I hope I didn't make a fool outta myself. You know?
Dr. Willow: What one of the beautiful things about those moments along anyone's evolutionary journey, and no matter what you do, maybe you're in the scientific realm or the medical realm or whatever, you, those moments are the building blocks to where you are now.
You couldn't be who you are, where you're at now with us stepping on that particular stone at that particular time.
Leah: You know what I wish I would've asked her about? So if anyone has followed the Nexium scandal, which was like that whole sort of cult new age sort of cult, they ended up, it got really big in the press because they were branding some of the girls.
And this big story got leaked and one of the head people that got the guru guy arrested was Catherine Oxenberg. Catherine Oxenberg was the one that was the main director and interviewer for that movie, sexology. So that was my first introduction to Katherine. And then later on Katherine has this big scandal with her daughter who's a big part of this cult.
So I really wanted to ask Devi if we had more time. Okay. So do you know anything, like what's the latest?
Dr. Willow: You should still go ask her.
Leah: Yeah, I should. So there's that connection. Oh, the other thing I thought was really powerful about Devi's messaging was the whole internal racism piece.
Dr. Willow: Yes. That was so powerful. The way she spoke about the systemic racism in our culture and in our bodies and how it has played an absolute role on such a subconscious level. Just really, really great perspective and great take on that.
Leah: It really, especially for me, like I wanna start investigating this particular topic in relationship to non-dualism.
And because that's where I see part of the separation happening between ourselves and I wanna engage a new conversation.I don't know that I'm the right one to know how to lead into that. So getting some support maybe from Devi would be a good idea because I want to be closer to all the people in my life. I wanna find out is there something separating me and my friends of color?
Dr. Willow: Yeah. In fact, she did point us toward her website where she some good just starting places for that.
Leah: I looked it up too. And yeah, it's interesting. It deserves a lot more research and investigation. And her Free Gift is really interesting.
I haven't had a chance to dive very deep into it, but y'all don't forget to download her offer.
Dr. Willow: Yeah. Grab that Free Gift, for sure.
Yeah, so thank you Devi. Thanks for so many pieces that you shared. The sweetness of who you are, the realness of who you are, the depth of your message, your work.
Yeah, absolutely. And you know, the practices that I've done with her in the past have been really simple and extremely powerful as well. So when you do start to dive into her work, you'll find that there's a real simplicity to it. Because of all that Tibetan Buddhism influence around her work.
And that can really be uh, an, a invitation, a deeper invitation for anyone who's like, I don't know about this Tantra thing. I'm not so sure. You know, could be that her work is just the, temperature that would work for you.
Leah: Especially if maybe you have a habit of over complicating things.
Dr. Willow: Yeah, exactly. There you go. Get the simplified version. Right, right. We'd love to hear what it brought up for you and you know, what you learned from it. Anything about that systemic racism that she spoke on. We want to hear from you about that. So come on over to the Sex Reimagined Instagram account and share with us
Leah: love, love, love..
Announcer: Thanks for tuning in. If the hosts seem to know what they were talking about, that's because they do. Leah Piper is a Tantric sex master coach and a positive psychology facilitator. Dr. Willow Brown is both a Chinese and functional medicine doctor and a Taoist sexology teacher. Don't forget your comments, likes, subscribes, and suggestions matter.
Announcer: Let's realize this new world together.