Reimagine Boundaries
[00:00:00] Introduction to Reimagining Boundaries
Dr. Willow: So we have an incredible show for you on boundaries today, and this is one of the most important things in any healthy relationship. You've had the old adage, good fences make good neighbors.
Leah: You know, boundaries have been a hot topic, right, for a while. And we give our take. So, sit tight and listen to all about it.
We are re-imagining boundaries, y'all. This is a type of boundary conversation I don't know that you might have had yet before. So I hope you learn a lot, and we can't wait to hear what you think too. Enjoy.
SxR Announcer: Welcome to the Sex Reimagined Podcast, where sex is shame-free and pleasure-forward. Let's get into the show.
Dr. Willow: Welcome. It is Sex Reimagined, and today we are reimagining what's possible in your sex life and in your intimate relationships when you bring healthy boundaries into the situation.
Leah: That's right. It's about boundaries, and people. Boundaries. I feel like we should come up with a better word for boundaries.
But good fences make good neighbors.
[00:01:10] Boundaries are Different from Rules
Dr. Willow: It's like, it's a container. One of the things I know about boundaries is they're different than rules. Rules are like, these are the rules, they're set in stone and that's how it is.
And boundaries are always shifting and moving and changing. And they're changing and evolving as you are changing and evolving. And so they create this container around what's current for you.
Leah: I think the thing that got me really behind boundaries is to understand that they're not, like you said, they're not just about like rules and limits. They're actually really connected to freedom.
And I always give this analogy in my classes when we introduce boundaries.
[00:01:51] The Playground Study on Boundaries
Leah: They actually did a study in regards to playgrounds, and there would be a big playground and like it didn't have a fence or
Anything other than a big field for you to play catch, and run around, and like most playgrounds, and then playground equipment. And they would study the children and see what they did. And the children didn't really spread out in the field. They stuck close to the slides in the swings like they hovered around the equipment.
And then they planted shrubs, as sort of like a border all along the field to close the kids. And this time the kids actually spread out and they were all over the equipment, but they were also like all over the field playing tag, doing all the fun, running around that kids do.
Wish I still had that energy.
But anyways what they noticed is that there would be kids really curious about what was outside and they would slip through the shrubs and leave the playground.
Dr. Willow: That would've been me, for sure.
Leah: Yeah, totally, me too.
Dr. Willow: What's on the other side of that?
Leah: Yeah, let's see if anyone will notice if we...? So then they slipped through. And they said, well, that's not gonna work.
So then they took a playground, and they put a fence around it. And what happened is, again, all the kids spread out. They played on the swings, and they played catch, and no one left the playground.
The kids didn't jump the fence. And I think what that does is it illustrates that when we know where the border of our playground is, We get to spread out. We really actually get to stretch and play, and it becomes more fun.
Without the boundaries, (as in the 1st example), we can be nervous or anxious, or uncertain.
And when the boundaries are sort of loose, they're there, but they're loosey-goosey, (as is the 2nd example), we'll then boundaries are gonna get crossed. And we lose sight of what's really important and what keeps us feeling expansive.
And so, even though we hear the word boundaries, we think limits. Really what we should think is, totally expressive. You know, really our playground actually gets so much bigger. We just have never been taught to look at it that way.
[00:04:01] The Glass of Water Metaphor
Dr. Willow: It really is a perspective shift when you're getting into a new relationship with what boundaries are. And I'm always every time I explain yin and yang, I like to use the example of a glass of water.
So the yang is the container. It's the boundary. It is the thing that holds...
Leah: the form that holds...
Dr. Willow: that holds the yin, the water, right. And so if a glass is tall, if it's a 16-ounce glass, boy, that yin can rise so much higher into that form. And if it's a shorter glass, it only gets to go so high, so the level of the boundaries. And another great analogy is the river.
Leah: Yeah, the banks of the river.
Dr. Willow: Yeah, the banks of the river make the river a river. Because without those banks it would be a floodplain. It wouldn't have direction; it wouldn't know where it's going. It wouldn't have guidance toward the big ocean that it gets to flow into.
Leah: And what I love about the river analogy is that the river's also shaping the banks.
You know, it's movable. it takes some of the earth with it on its way to the ocean. And so I feel like there's a really interesting, connection between, being the banks of the river and holding the form, but also being fluid enough that you can go with the current.
Dr. Willow: And I think that's one of the fun things about playing with and exploring different boundaries, expanding what you think your rules should be. And starting to get in touch with what's a boundary rather than a rule in this particular situation and scenario with this lover, or this husband, or this wife, or this person that I've been with for a long, long time.
The boundaries can get stagnant. So keeping them alive, keeping them always current to what's evolving inside of you.
[00:05:56] Brian Reeve's Work - Requests vs. Requirements
Dr. Willow: I must give Brian Reeve's credit for this next piece. He is a really wonderful coach, and love him so much. But he basically has a whole program on boundaries and breaks it down into Requests versus Requirements.
So, boundaries consist of two legs, and a request would be like, you know, honey, I really want you to take out the garbage every Sunday night. And if you don't, I'm still gonna love you, and be with you, and it's gonna be okay. That's my request. That's a boundary request.
And then the same example would be a requirement, honey, if you don't take out the garbage on Sunday nights, it's at some point going to be the undoing of this relationship. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but at some point. This is a requirement.
Leah: You're gonna fight enough about this, it's going to break us apart.
Dr. Willow: Exactly. And so having that clarity for yourself before setting a boundary is really useful because then you can communicate to the other person, like, this is a request, or this is a requirement, it's more serious for me.
This is what it means to me. This is why it's a requirement for me. And it can be really helpful to offer a boundary in that way or lay down a boundary in that way, right off the bat.
Rather than, like, here's my boundary. And then your boundary gets crossed, and then you have to go back and be like, shit. Well, is that a request or a requirement? Am I okay with that boundary being crossed? Do I still wanna be with this person if that boundary is crossed again and again? Or, you know, is it not okay with me? So you have to do a little backend work if you don't get that clarity upfront.
[00:07:43] When Boundaries are used to Control out of Fear
Leah: I think this is where it gets really sticky. I know where I've gotten in trouble with boundaries is I've created boundaries out of fear.
Dr. Willow: I love that you're bringing that up.
Leah: Not out of sovereignty, but out of fear of what will happen if I don't have control over the situation. So I would manufacture boundaries to feel less afraid, and to feel a false sense of control.
And usually, it was limiting somebody else.
Dr. Willow: And limiting you.
Leah: Yeah. So that I wouldn't be, so that I could manage what, so I could manage the mystery, right? Especially from a more non-monogamy, open relationship standpoint. I think that's where I got in a lot of deep water is it was... I really wasn't comfortable with the people who wanted to play outside of my relationship with my partner.
And I knew that I probably wasn't gonna have a voice around whether or not... I don't know. I think so many times, I felt pressured to say yes when I wanted to say no. And so I had to tie myself into a pretzel to make it work because these other two people wanted me to make it work.
And so in my resentment of having to say yes when I wanted to say no, and feeling like everything was at risk if I didn't. Then I was going to exert as much power and control over the situation as possible, which only strangled the entire experience for everybody. It was one of the things that turned kinda messy in my life, and then I would try to exert these consequences.
If these agreements and these boundaries are not honored, these are the consequences, which usually the consequences were too big. And so when the boundaries got crossed, I couldn't actually... I didn't even have enough integrity to hold onto the consequences, which continued to make me appear untrustworthy.
Dr. Willow: And also, probably, you didn't really want to instill those consequences.
Leah: No.
Dr. Willow: That doesn't feel good. You gotta come back to the essence of self in a situation like that and feel into, okay, that boundary was crossed. Like, how do I wanna feel in a situation? How do I wanna navigate this from a place of love rather than a place of fear? So that would be my question for you, Leah. Like, how in those moments, what would've been an indicator for you that could have shown you, Hey, you're navigating outta fear versus love?
Leah: I don't think that love was a choice other than loving myself enough to get outta the relationship and find something that was in alignment for me.
Because the fact of the matter is it was nothing but suffering because I wasn't connected to my own sovereignty. I wasn't living with integrity with my own values, and I wasn't with a partner whose values matched mine. So we were mismatched, and we really couldn't get on the same page.
And because a career was involved and this person appeared to have more power than me. And I don't blame or victimize myself in this.
It just felt like an impossible situation because I really wasn't ready to leave. But had I had enough strength if I'd had enough core, if I'd had enough self-development with a capital "S" I think I would've been better equipped to make the harder choices that would've been the most loving choice for me and ultimately for the other people involved.
Because through my anguish, I behaved really poorly, and I would've preferred, it would've been easier to love myself without being put in that position. Because of the after-effect, you know, the aftermath is feeling so much hurt, anger, and lashing out. And feeling so betrayed and like creating many stories, true or untrue. That magnified the suffering.
And because people were afraid of me and my reaction, that gave opportunities for hiding, for secrecy, for lack of transparency, and eventually betrayal. Because they're now afraid too. Right. So when we're afraid we end up not being in our hearts, it's really hard to access the love.
We're tying ourselves up into a pretzel. We're trying to make this thing work that we most want, but we're not being completely honest. And it is a vicious cycle that puts a bad taste in my mouth. I think, for the whole open relationship thing. I realized that as much as I liked the idea, Why can't everyone can just love more?
You know, like, I was so attuned to that. I so wanted that. I realized that once I started pair bonding, I wasn't a good candidate for managing an open type of relationship, a non-monogamy relationship with maturity at that stage in my life.
Maybe in the future, I've grown enough and know my limits, and I trust myself so much more, and I know who I am so much more.
There's a lot more maturity that needs to be developed, I think, for people who wanna do this type of work in a relationship well.
Dr. Willow: It's almost like you should have to pass a, like, a driver's test like when you're 16. You need to pass a non-monogamy test, and you need to be at least 35
Leah: Right, right, right, right, right.
[00:13:10] How do you know you have the maturity for Non-Monogamy?
Dr. Willow: Like you've gotta have some years and some wisdom and some development of capital *S* self under your belt, for sure, to navigate it well. So I think it's one of those spheres of relationship that people are either really afraid of cause they don't understand it or really intrigued by. And there's a lot more research, and there's a lot more stuff to read out there on how to do it well, which is fantastic.
But boundaries, I think, are probably one of the most important things that you can have a good relationship with when you are trying to navigate non-monogamy or polyamory or really any relationship.
Leah: But I don't think it works, even boundaries, when two people have different value systems.
So I think, like, what it comes down to before even engaging in these types of explorations is, are the people that you're wanting to engage with, you know, where are your values in all of this? What's your real true heart's desire for what you wanna explore? And if that is off, and you're trying to be what you think someone else will like, approve of, or appreciate, you know, you are already headed in the wrong direction.
And I think that was part of my struggle, as I was more invested in being loved, appreciated, and liked. That I said yes to, things that I had no business saying yes to.
Dr. Willow: Right. Yeah.
Leah: You know?
Dr. Willow: Absolutely.
Leah: So that's what's key. I think you just have to do enough self-development, and have enough self-reflection to explore this with as much consciousness as possible.
And I think I, at the time, truly believed that I had enough maturity, that I had enough self-reflection, that I saw this as a personal growth path.
Dr. Willow: Right.
Leah: I thought I had it, what it took. But what I didn't have the skill to process was the value system. Are we on the same page?
And I don't even know in that particular, in those circumstances, if that would've mattered to the other partners because people wanted what they wanted.
Dr. Willow: Right, right. That thing about being on the same page is that's really what boundaries do allow you to be. Even if you're not on the same page, at least you know what page the other person is on.
And there's a real honoring in understanding like truly where they're standing, what page they're standing on.
Leah: You and how they got there and why it's important to them.
Dr. Willow: Why it's important to them. And when you really understand that, then it's so much easier to honor those boundaries.
Because often the mind can go in these directions of like, oh, well, why that boundary? It doesn't make sense to me. It must be because they don't wanna deal with some hierarchical situation. Or whatever. In their mind, they're coming up with reasons why it's really not an important boundary.
But that's because they don't understand why it's an important boundary for the person. And so, that truth must come from inside the person setting the boundary. So that's, again, why it's so important to get really clear before even laying down a boundary or putting that in place. Is this a request, or is this a requirement for me?
What's true for me? Do I really need this, and without it, it won't work? Or is this something that I would like?
Leah: And I think there are lots of different examples, right?
[00:16:51] BDSM & Boundaries
Leah: Like, one of the things I really love about the B.D.S.M community is their process for sussing out their play, right?
It's like, okay, here's all the categories that we could bring to the dungeon and all the different scenarios that we could explore, whether that's like sensation play or whether that's psychological play. And what I love is that there's no changing the boundaries midway unless it is to get less.
You know, you don't get to ask necessarily for more; you can increase your limits in another session. But I like how thorough it is, at least from speaking to Om Rupani and his explanation of the process that he takes people through.
And so, let's say there's maybe ropes or playing with flogging, right?
And you get to really describe what parts of your body you’re open to flogging. What type of strength do you have a yes for? What are you uncertain about? Like, I really love the process of getting super clear about what you want. And I like it posed in that way because it explores your desire. Versus, what are you not wanting?
Because I think we can be so focused on what we're afraid of by saying, this is what I don't want.
[00:18:08] Exploring Boundaries through what you DO WANT vs. what you DON'T WANT.
Leah: Versus actually using boundaries to explore what you do want.
Dr. Willow: Yes. Yes.
Leah: And I think when we can first explore, like, I may be new to this, and this is as far as I wanna go, or this is as far as my curiosity is in this moment. Let's go there. Talking about the wants and desires and understanding the limits through that lens.
Starting with the thing of what I'm afraid is gonna happen, and what I don't want to happen, and we gotta have condoms, and you can only French kiss, and if there's oral sex, you know, it's it's all about what I'm afraid of and what I don't want.
And those come down to rules, right? Versus what I really wanna explore, what I really wanna learn, and what I'm really hoping to discover in myself... you know, those are... it's a very different feeling, totally different emotionally
And so much more expansive, curious, and open in your own body. So then you're heading into a sexual encounter or an intimate encounter with this like curiosity and openness rather than constriction and contraction around it.
Dr. Willow: It's really, really powerful to shift the concept of boundaries in that frame so that you can have more room for pleasure and more room to find what's true for you. What is actually going to turn you on or light you up. Even if it's a psyche thing. I want this boundary in place because I wanna explore being deeper in love with you.
Like that's, you know, that's what I'm curious about. It's not about I'm afraid of this, that, or the other.
[00:19:43] When Boundaries are Honored or Not Honored, what's their Impact?
Dr. Willow: This boundary means something to me because it allows me, my mind, and my psyche to drop deeper into my heart so I can open more fully with you.
Leah: Which I think, you know, the word that arises is impact. I am impacted when we hold it this way. This is the impact it has on me. I feel respected. I feel cared for. I feel seen.
Dr. Willow: Honored.
Leah: I feel honored. I feel precious. Or I feel disrespected. I feel unseen. I feel invisible. I feel forgotten. I feel scared. I feel uncertain. I feel doubtful. I feel like I'm bracing. It reminds me of ______.
It triggered when this happened, and this happened, and this happened. And that impact is really impactful to the degree that I don't want to keep putting me in that position. So if you need that, this is something I don't need in my life, which means I can't play with you here.
[00:20:47] The Be List and the Become List
Leah: It kind of comes down to what are your ultimatums, what are your non-negotiables? This reminds me of Alison Armstrong's work regarding the B list. I would rather be alone, than be with that. So like, if you haven't established this, if this isn't who you are, then I would rather be alone.
I love her example when she discusses trust. Like, if you are not trustworthy, I would rather be alone. That's not something I'm gonna wait around for you to develop. You're either trustworthy, or you're not.
Dr. Willow: You're not.
Leah: So you have to be trustworthy, right, for us to even get into the playground together.
Dr. Willow: That's a good one for our audience; everyone listening, take some time and journal it out. What is your Be List? What do people need to be already?
Leah: What do they already need to be? Otherwise, you'd rather be alone. And then there's the Become List. Because we can all become more.
When I first met my husband, I didn't like the gym. I didn't know what I was doing. It wasn't a strength of mine. It wasn't something I had a lot of enthusiasm about. And through lots of conversations over the first couple of years, he could communicate; I'm concerned that you will age faster even though you're younger. I wanna be able to do things and to be in our bodies, and that matters to me.
And I had to find my way into embracing getting stronger in my physical body, but that was something I became. And I'm really happy to have had his influence and support, and every time I'm at the gym, he beams at me because he's so happy to be there with me. And he loves seeing me enjoy myself, and it's like all these rewards come from it. And so I didn't have that. That wasn't who I was coming into the relationship with, but I was able to become it. And so we can make space. It's like, what's the become list?
I know for me, traveling is like such a high value for me. It's everything to me. And my husband didn't have a lot of traveling experience. So we had to go on a few adventures to go. Is this something that he can become? Can he get on board? Is this something that he's gonna enjoy? And we had to find that out. So, thankfully, these were things that we discovered, and we became for each other and ourselves before we actually committed to getting married.
So I really love that Alison also says, look, you don't know until these things arise, right? But you have to make space for enough life experiences to happen between you and somebody else, so you're making wise decisions for the future. And that just takes time.
Dr. Willow: That's why they say to spend at least four seasons with your beloved before putting a ring on the finger. Because as seasons shift in a year's time, they're also gonna shift in a lifetime. And so the willingness that you're just exemplified to become somebody who's into going to the gym. I've only known you since you've been into going to the gym. And you're super into it. And so working out, being strong, it's not just for him; it's for you now. So it's really become a piece of your of your makeup and of your values system.
So again, there are the values, which is a really important thing that I think many couples miss as well.
[00:24:09] Working with Core Values, Negotiations, and Deal Breakers
Dr. Willow: I ask these my couples all the time, like, what are your top two core values? Or what are your partner's top two core values? And often they don't know each other. And how can you orient to each other if you're unsure what's important and valuable to the other person? Travel, for example. It's like if that's really important and valuable to one person, the other person will need to have some level of value in that themselves for it to work.
Leah: Right, right. And there are lots of ways to negotiate different things, right? So I had a partner who liked to travel, but he was also a smoker. And so it was stressful, like those plane rides of not being able to smoke, being in airports, and having long layovers, like that was just a practicality. He wasn't gonna quit smoking right away, and that's a process. And so I had to know that travel days were gonna be stressful. He was gonna be on edge because his nervous system was gonna be on whack of not being able to smoke when he wanted to smoke and have that stress reliever. And so that was gonna require me to be more patient. And so we worked with it. And we made it work. but that was one of those things; you have to be able to be malleable to make things work, even if there's obstacles.
And again, that requires, some boundaries. Like, Hey, I need us to have a longer layover because I am gonna need a cigarette and that means I'm gonna have to go through security again. Like, that's important to me. if I'm gonna do this and have a great time, we have to plan that in our travel. You know?
Dr. Willow: Right.
Leah: And is that gonna be okay for me? So these are just like really examples of like negotiations where we can work with each other and some of those obstacles.
And then to know what are your deal breakers?
No, that's a pain in my ass. I'd rather not be with someone who's a smoker who can't travel. And who's a bear to be around. I don't want that when I'm headed over to see my family and I've got an eight hour flight. I don't want you to be an asshole when we arrive. I'm sorry, but No. Not gonna work for me.
And what about international travel? Now we're really screwed because those flights are super long. And I don't wanna fucking hear about it. So it's just like you get to those limits and then you have to make choices.
Dr. Willow: So what would we say to people, couples who you know, maybe one person makes a very clear boundary.
Like, this is a requirement, this is what I need. And then, two months down the road, their boundary has changed, but they haven't maybe expressed it quite as clearly. Or maybe they have expressed it clearly, but the other person's like, but that's not what you said two months ago. And now you're saying something different.
And I can't shift that quickly. Like, how do we support them in navigating those changes that the boundaries take as you evolve and grow as an individual?
Right? I mean, one is you have to be self-responsible enough and communicative enough to, as soon as you realize that you've had an alteration in your boundary or you would like to make an adjustment, that you remember to include everyone who's affected by that boundary. And that you don't keep it in your head and assume people are mind readers.
The respectful, responsible thing to do is to sit down and make adjustments. And for the two people to be fluid enough for that to be available. And also to respond when someone may be not appreciating the changeability. It can feel like a rollercoaster if someone is too all over the place.
[00:27:43] What's Reasonable and Unreasonable regarding Boundaries
Leah: Also, if someone's too rigid. Like, if someone is like super rigid about boundaries and they're kind of anal, and there's no room for mistakes and for flexibility, that's not easy for me. You know? And so we also have to take into consideration people's like personalities. Sometimes we say yes to something that actually it's not in our awareness to do perfectly. It's something that we actually have to have practice in doing really well.
I mean, this is a stupid example, but I leave the cupboards open and drawers open. I don't know what is wrong with me that I forget to close shit.
Dr. Willow: I noticed that.
Leah: Did you notice that? Oh my God. It has driven crazy all of my significant partners, my cousin does it too.
His wife bitches about it. And I think, oh, maybe this is like a family thing, I don't know? But you know, I don't intend to do that. I can't, my husband has tried to create boundaries around this and I'm like, sure you can have a boundary all you want and that doesn't mean I'm gonna be good at creating a new habit for myself. You're probably gonna have to get on my case and I'm going to keep trying to do better and I have improved.
Dr. Willow: Believe it or not.
Leah: But I'm not gonna be Perfect. Yes, believe it or not, I am actually a little bit better. And he doesn't wipe off countertops. Now, I could go, I need a boundary that you remember to wipe off countertops.
You know what, it's takes a while for someone to build a new skill. And to create a new awareness. And a new habit. So there's things, you know, boundaries have a lot of range around what is reasonable for someone to win at? So we have to have space. And so that's really dependent on are you looking at domestic chores or are you looking at, you know, having sexual experiences outside of your relationship. Those are two very, very different categories.
Dr. Willow: And there, you're right, there does need to be some leeway and some give with those kinds of boundaries, especially like the household chore ones.
[00:29:44] Boundaries make us Vulnerable
Dr. Willow: But even with even with the deeper, more like, hey, let's check out non-monogamy kind of boundaries. There needs to be some room for people to make mistakes and to grow and to learn from those mistakes. And you know, and you need to decide for yourself, like, how many times do they get to make that same mistake before you're not gonna take that anymore? Right. And there's a real vulnerability that can be felt when you have a strong boundary that you would like to state or put in place, it can feel like you're standing there naked, like you're fully exposed and you're like, God, I got this thing.
And I had to speak one the other night, or last night actually, and my voice was like, it was like a frog the whole time. It's like six minute voice memo, and it was just like scratchy and barely there. Voice kept cutting out. And I was like, fuck, I'm gonna get through this fucking voice memo if it's the last thing I do, because I'm gonna practice using my voice because this isn't going away. It keeps showing up in my heart and my head. It's a boundary that I need to speak out loud.
And you know, I was scared to do it because what if it, you know, could drive that person away or it could totally crumble the whole thing? You know, it could do all these things that I would feel bad about, I would feel afraid of, but I have to love myself more than that fear, and know that what I'm asking for is super important to me.
And so feel, feel my emotion .
Leah: Yeah. Yeah. It's very sweet. it's like, it's really raw and vulnerable and meaningful, you know.
Dr. Willow: It's meaningful and it's tender. A lot of the times we're so afraid of doing it.
And then a lot of the times, like probably maybe
Leah: 98% of the time?
Dr. Willow: I was gonna say 9 times outta 10. I was like, maybe it's eight, I don't know? But nine times outta 10, the other person's like, oh my God. They melt into it. And they're like, totally, I will honor that, I will respect that. Yes.
Leah: That works for me. I get it. Thank you so much. And they fall in love with you even more.
Dr. Willow: It brings you closer together. It's so beautiful.
Leah: When we take vulnerable risks and we lean into that, it's always so delightfully reassuring when people respond with even more closeness, and those are the types of risks we have to start taking and exploring and giving ourselves. It's hard to do, but man does it up level everything.
Dr. Willow: It up levels everything. It's a beautiful process and practice. It's a practice. You know, the muscles come as you practice and do it more and more.
If you haven't been doing it, if it hasn't been a practice in your life, then when you first get started with stating boundaries, and being clear about requests and requirements, and what works for you, and what doesn't, and what hurts you and what makes you feel open to them, when you first start just know that there's often reverberation. Like you might put a boundary out and be like, oh my God, I can't believe I said that, or did that. Or now I have to deal with the consequences myself of my own truth. Like, is that really my truth? And you start to question and doubt. It's like when you first go to the gym and start doing weights, the next day, you're gonna be sore. So that's the reverberation. You're gonna be like, Ugh, I'm not going back to the gym. That was hell. I feel terrible.
Leah: Why would I do that to myself?
Dr. Willow: But then you keep going, you keep going, you keep practicing, lifting those weights. Pretty soon you're like, where else can I be vulnerable? Where else can I put a boundary up?
Leah: You start to see, you actually get the proof in the strength that grows and in the closeness that gets created and you start to trust vulnerability and you start to rely on it being a superpower. And you start to trust human beings more. There's a real gift in that. I think so many of us are so jaded, we have a really hard time leaning into trust and it's the one thing I wish, you know, for others.
Dr. Willow: For humanity.
We can trust each other more thanmore than we think we can.
We have to trust ourselves.
Leah: People think I'm a little Pollyanna on that front, so I get that too.
Dr. Willow: I totally agree though. And the trust in others has to come first from inside of yourself. So if you can trust that you are stating something that is important to you, that is sacred to you, that is a good fence, that's gonna create more space for you to explore and to expand. Well, a question I was gonna have for you is, you've been taking a lot more leaps into trust, not only trusting yourself, trusting the unknown, trusting men, trusting love in a way that's really powerful and sweet and wonderful.
Leah: And I'm wondering, like when you look back on your past recent or even further back past, have you leaned into vulnerability in such a way that you regretted it?
Dr. Willow: No, I have never regretted it. I don't think, no, I can't think of any. I mean, I've had those reverb moments where I'm like, fuck, I totally laid myself out on the line there, and it didn't get received the way I wanted it to.
However, it was still my truth, and I trust my truth, and I know that is true for me. And whether or not the other person can pick up what I'm laying down or not, doesn't really matter. It's a practice for me to vulnerably put that piece of my authentic truth on the line.
[00:35:28] How do you know when a Boundary is Working or Not Working?
Leah: So how do you know when a boundary is working or not working?
That's a very good question. I think when you are getting what you want out of the situation, like when you're being met, when you're being seen, when you're feeling honored, when you're feeling, when your nervous system is like, okay, then you know your boundaries are being honored and you're being understood that, for me, understanding is so huge.
Dr. Willow: So if I am being understood, then I'm like, I feel like I can forgive mistakes and I can let go of things, boundaries when they're crossed. I can move through that quickly if the other person is like trying to understand further why that's important to me.
Leah: I think that's a really unexplored question that people should take to heart. How do you know it's working and how do you know it's not working? And so you can tell by, am I opening or am I closing? Is this opening me? Is it closing me? It kind of comes back to that simple scan your body, feel the felt sense. Also, is the outside world reflecting, opening or closing?
Dr. Willow: Yes.
Leah: Is my partner opening or closing? Are we getting closer? We getting further apart?
Dr. Willow: Right.
Leah: Am I trusting myself more? Am I trusting myself less? Am I doubting myself more? Am I doubting myself less? You know, that is a really important gauge is to go, how do I know it's working? How do I know it's not working? And when you can start to take inventory on that, it really helps you measure making choices and knowing when to make adjustments. And then asking for help.
[00:37:05] Energetic Boundaries
Leah: I think another thing that is a little more esoteric but I think for those people who are curious about the energetic ramifications of how to hold boundaries in a really different, interesting, energetic way.
And one of the things that I learned being more of an empath, it's sort of like this empath survival guide is something that we call Edge.
You're more than where your skin ends. your field is actually goes beyond your skin. And I think a lot of us have been told that since kindergarten, like, you deserve your, your private space.
So the way I think of it is like, okay, if my personal space is like the shape of an egg and I'm the yoke inside of the egg, and that's how you can connect to your field. And forgive this woowoo-ness if you struggle with this, but get over yourself.
You know, if you can connect to, like, you have an essence, like you have a thumbprint that is unique and that the universe can recognize. And your name is similar to that. So there's thousands of people with the name Leah, but the way I say the name Leah, has a certain vibrational tone that the universe can recognize and so can I.
And so it's a way with which it can bring you home. And one of the ways that I know that I don't have my boundaries in place is because I won't be connected to my edge. And so how do you connect to your edge? You imagine that you can say your name, I like to say my name, sort of inside my forehead, and then I connect that to a color, and then I send that, I'm very visual, so this works for me, but I can send that out to the edge of my egg. Right? That's the edge of my field.
And one of the ways that you can see this in a literal sense is if you go to a party, you'll notice people who have like really good energetic manners, which means they've got good edge and good boundaries, because even the people that are always like bumping into everyone and hugging people without awareness, if somebody wants to be hugged or not, there's these people that just bumble into everyone's boundaries because they aren't aware. And so you'll notice that even those people are cautious around people who have a strong edge. Like they'll kinda go, oh hey, but they'll circle around them and then they'll hug everyone else. when someone has a really strong edge, they are aware of keeping out what they don't want coming in.
Now, I think those people also have to be careful that they're not building a wall. Right. Because there's a difference between having, being wrapped in what I call the cell, like this egg metaphor is really, I actually think of it more of as a cell with a membrane cell. A membrane more than I think of an egg.
It's just an egg helps people visually see it. But this cell is a healthy cell. It knows how to allow in vital nutrients and things that are positive and things that would open me. It also knows how to keep out toxins and pollutions, but I have to be in relationship with that cell. Me and that cell. I have to keep communicating what I want to come in and what I don't want to come in. What I would prefer to stay at my edge until I have more information. And so from sort of an esoteric, energetic kind of standpoint, there's a relationship that you can build with the outside world so that people can sense it. Hopefully that's a little clear. I don't know.
Dr. Willow: Oh, it's absolutely, I know exactly what you're talking about, obviously. But for anyone who's like, what the heck did she just say? It's like there is, this egg-shaped auric field basically. An aura around you. And you can extend that auric field several feet out in front of you, or you can bring it in closer if you feel like you need more protection. Depending what day of the month you're on your cycle or what's going on in your life, where you're at in the world, who you're with. If you're feeling more secure send that auric field membrane of that cell a little further out so that you can be more in your essence or bring it closer in if you need more protection.
And so having, you can even talk to that membrane like, Hey, membrane, I need a little help. Like that person over there, I can see them coming right at me. And I know they're a close talker. They're one of those people who gets right up in your face and like spits in your face while they're talking. It's so annoying.
And I like them, but I wish they wouldn't come so fucking close. So just tell your membrane, Hey, can you help me out? Can you keep that person like two feet away from me at least. And then you don't have to do all the work. Then you're in relationship with this energetic field that's gonna do the work for you.
So now we're talking energetic boundaries, right? And you can see when somebody has that, like what you're talking about, at a party or at an event or wherever, at the grocery store, you can see if somebody's walking around with their energetic auric field in place, there's a... there's an ease to them.
There's an openness to them. There's a confidence to them that's very attractive. Even if they're not beautiful or attractive, like it's very....
Leah: They're in command of their space.
Dr. Willow: Exactly.
Leah: And they hold themselves in a certain way that it's obvious that they're in control of their space in such a way that people aren't gonna cross over if they don't want them to.
Dr. Willow: That's right.
Leah: It's a way with which you sort of hold yourself and your attention.
Dr. Willow: And that feels safe.
Leah: Some people get really tight and really rigid and they block everybody out. But that has to do with anxiety and fear.
Dr. Willow: That's different.
Leah: And that's different. And you can check that stuff out too, because it's more like a wall and less like a fluidity and an assurance and a self like knowledge and sovereignty. And then you've got people just blundering all over the place.
Dr. Willow: No membrane in place.
Leah: Right, and I've been a little bit of all those. I didn't realize that I had the right to the edge of my skin or the right to my aura. I grew up in...
Dr. Willow: and many people don't....
Leah: big family was lots of people in shared bedrooms. And that was not a given piece that was nurtured at all in my upbringing. And so I had to learn by watching the negative effect I had on other people because I didn't know that there were boundaries. I wasn't catching up on, like, I just didn't see it. So that had to be something that I was shown. And I appreciate everyone who was patient, and forgiving, and did their best not to be judgmental as if I was intentionally being socially inappropriate
Dr. Willow: Right. Another sort of terminology that you'll hear a lot is leaky, leaky energy or leaky boundaries, leaky sexual energy. And, you know, you can really feel that and see that when somebody is leaking out of their cell walls.
Leah: I mean the classic, I feel slimed, has to do with someone who's not being aware of how their energy is impacting other people. And that does not win you Sex partners or friends, like people have strong reactions to that.
Dr. Willow: I mean, think about when you're in the company of somebody who has good energetic boundaries and is very sovereign within that choice, and that creation that they're creating, how safe you feel and how comfortable, how much more ease you feel in your nervous system. You're more open.
Versus somebody who's either very rigid or very just slimy and oozing. It's a very different experience for you. So check in with your own nervous system that will give you information around other people's boundaries, energetic boundaries are, as well as your own.
It's really important that we do two things; that we are feeling into our own body sensations and tracking what makes us most comfortable so that we stay open. Noticing why when we feel closed, we're feeling closed, being observant of what is arising in the moment and in our environment.
Leah: And likewise, having the compassion and the curiosity to watch other people's responses. Because body language can show you so much if you just start tuning in.
And I know for me, when I was starting to learn all these concepts, I was very reluctant. In some ways to have this strong edge because I felt like it was keeping people out. And that felt like it was going against my nature. Because my nature is one to be expressive and to be very loving and very caring.
Dr. Willow: And inclusive. Where everyone can come in.
Leah: Yeah, I wanna foster a sense of belonging and inclusiveness.
But I also didn't know until I really worked this process is how much I thought I had to be loved. So there was a lot of self abandonment connected to that value. And so I had to explore really holding my edge stronger than was comfortable. So I knew what was really right for me and and the outcome of that was I became, I honored my introvert more. I could actually see my denial of that part of me that is introverted and actually needs a little more quiet time and alone time. And by honoring that I was no longer self abandoning due to what I thought was socially expected of me. In order to help other people feel great. I was neglecting my own feelings of comfort so that I was being a people pleaser. And so all of this really does relate to boundaries, right?
Dr. Willow: Absolutely.
Leah: It's like how do we grow in our maturity and in our love for self and in our love for others is waking up to our impact. Not just, physically, but energetically and emotionally. How are we really affecting people?
[00:47:17] How are you Affecting Others and what our Pets can Teach us about Boundaries?
Dr. Willow: So, opening your eyes to that, looking around and seeing how are you affecting your spouse? How are you affecting your partner? How are you affecting your housemate? How are you affecting your children? Animals are really good for this...
Leah: ...such good teachers.
Dr. Willow: Because if you're all anxious and got your, panties in a bunch over something, your animal is gonna pick up on that big time.
And if you can notice how the animal is reacting to that, then you can start to use that as an indicator to see how are the people in your life reacting to that? Because people can hide it a lot easier. Their their, I impact the impact that it's having on them and a lot of them will. So you've got to really tune in and look a little deeper than what they're showing sometimes.
Leah: Because with animals we don't have language. We have to work, we have to communicate in different ways. And so you can't manipulate an animal with your words. I had gotten this dog... and I gotten this dog because obviously like it wasn't working for me to merge with humans. I was getting the big announcement that people didn't want me to just merge with them anymore. So I had to stay in my own lane. But that did not mean I wanted to stop merging. So I was gonna give myself a little doggy, so I could have something to cuddle with, and something to hold me, and something to sleep with at night.
Like I just won this little merging lap dog.
Dr. Willow: We gotta trade dogs.
Leah: And this dog would not merge with me. Talk about learning energetic boundaries, like this dog wasn't gonna be a lap dog. He'd lean in, but it took years of that puppy and me establishing energetic boundaries with Chewy before Chewy became the lap dog that I always wanted.
And he's now like 13 years old and those first five years he just was not having me. Plus he liked dudes way more than he liked girls. And that was always like, What? The betrayal! He was always like a dude's dog. He would jump into every dude's lap, but wouldn't jump into mine. And I know that a lot of that was how I was holding myself,
Dr. Willow: those energetic boundaries...
Leah: how I was taking care of myself or not taking care of myself and he wasn't gonna be used.
And, we couldn't get in fights about it.
Dr. Willow: Right. He couldn't fight back.
Leah: You couldn't argue with him.
Dr. Willow: Exactly. So you just had to learn. You just had to adjust and keep adjusting.
Leah: And thank God I was taking those courses then so I could track what was really happening, you know? So I could really be responsive and celebrate it.
Dr. Willow: Those are very, very useful, helpful courses. With Lynda Caesara that Leah did a lot of years with, seven years, I think. You know, another thing you can play with energetic boundaries is the universe, like nature and the universe. So if you want to test this out with the universe, you can ask for things like, hey, universe, like if I'm holding my energetic boundaries well, like, put a feather in my path today. Or
Leah: Oh, that's fun.
Dr. Willow: show me a yellow rose...
[00:50:29] Asking for Help from a Higher Power
I think a lot of us forget, we're in a relationship here with the universe, with the creator, spirit, God, whatever you call it.
And so when we ask for support, when we ask for guidance, when we ask for assurance that we're on the right track with a boundary or something else that we're working on. We 10 times outta 10, we're gonna get it in some form or another. It might not come in the form of a feather or yellow rose, but it can come in some other form, it might not be an actual rose, but like you see a sticker of a yellow rose on the bathroom wall.
Leah: Right, sure!
Dr. Willow: Wherever. The next day maybe, not that day or something.
Leah: Right.
Dr. Willow: So really just opening your perception to the fact that you're in a co-creative relationship with your life and your reality. And If anyone's into the plant medicine journey work, there's a really great place to play with that. Okay, I need a little bit less or birth work.
When a woman's in labor, she's in the throes of a contraction. I'm like, okay, drop in and ask the goddess to roll it back a little bit so you can handle this freight train because you can handle this freight train. You just need to ask for more support, more guidance.
And that can be so helpful and so useful when you are working on developing your muscles for boundaries.
Leah: You know, along those lines of how do you know it's working?
[00:52:10] Boundaries between Parents & Kids
Leah: One of the places that I think goes under investigated is between parents and kids. Because we expect our parents to create boundaries for us.
Rules, right? We have to do our homework and we have to brush our teeth and shit like that. But rarely do parents ask their kids, how are we doing? Are there any limits you need from me?
Dr. Willow: I love that.
Is there
Leah: anything that you wish I did differently? How would you like support from me? What doesn't work when it comes to me giving you feedback or discipline or support? I really am curious about what you need and what works for you.
That shows so much seeing of your kid, like...
Dr. Willow: so much respect....
Leah: ...like what they think and feel matters.
Dr. Willow: Yes.
Leah: And I think the reason why a lot of parents don't do it, maybe it's because they don't think about it, but I think the other is, they're afraid of being rejected.
Like they don't wanna hear that thing that there kids, you know, like we go to worst case scenario. Right. And, and we're protective of ourselves. We don't wanna be rejected, we don't wanna be hurt, we don't wanna be told we're not okay. And so we avoid actually asking for that kind of feedback.
But in so doing, we really miss an opportunity for closeness and supporting that person feeling really seen and valued and that what they think and feel matters to you. And so I think that goes really under explored with kids.
Dr. Willow: Absolutely. That's a, a great level to take this practice to of like, Hey, we're co-creating this relationship together.
We're developing you together. It's not just me training you to be an adult someday.
Leah: That's right.
Dr. Willow: It's like...
Leah: ...and it models like such good relationship skills.
Dr. Willow: Oh yeah. Your kid is gonna grow up with so much more interest, and understanding, and willingness to listen, and to play together and to evolve, and develop this relationship together.
The first relationship, intimate or romantic relationship that we have in our lives as children, as our parents. And a lot of kids are growing up with a single parent, so they're not getting that modeling of what it looks like to have a cooperative relationship in place, so it can be such a game changer.
I don't know about you, Leah, but nine out of 10 of the clients I work with, it's the childhood stuff, right? It's that first relationship in life that just did a number on them. They're still recovering from it. So even if you are a single parent, or in a relationship where you're like, we don't really like eachother.
Leah: Or your kids grown.
Dr. Willow: Or Your kids are grown.
Leah: Your influence has changed. You know? There's never too late.
You can still go back and use these practices of co-creation and like, what's the boundary that you need? Like, are you feeling safe enough with what I've put in place? Or is this not working for you in some way? And we can use that in all of our relationships.
I think also like when we put emotional demands on our kids to fulfill some of our own needs for intimacy.
[00:55:26] Entitlement
I've really noticed this with men, because a lot of women complain in my women's groups. Like, where are all the open-hearted men? Where are all the open-hearted men? Like, I just want man....
Leah: And my response is usually, well, are you trustworthy enough for men to have his heart open around, are you conscious of the sensitivity of his heart? Are you aware how impactful it is for a man to take you into his heart?
Because women act entitled as hell. We think we just have a right to that heart.
We don't realize is, how do we feel when a man acts entitled to our pussy? Right. Do we appreciate that? No. No.
So we have to treat a man's heart the way we would treat, the way we would want a man to treat our yoni or pussy. You know, and to realize that is the feminine pole in his body, and it's the feminine pole in our body.
It's just in two different Chakras.
Dr. Willow: And there's a real art to it. There's a real art to penetrating the masculine heart. In fact, I think we need to do a course on that.
Leah: We'll do an episode on we'll dive deeper into these different poles in our bodies and how we can respond to each other in a more respectful and honoring way.
It's a whole nother piece of boundary work, is understanding how do we stay at someone's edge, and then wait to be invited. Because so much of what we've learned is to barge in.
And there's a couple of different, pattern types that we adopt as we try to survive our childhoods, where some of us are either, we are susceptible to letting people cross our boundaries time and time again, or we're the ones that cross somebody else's boundaries time and times again.
It's like, I got boundaries and it's your problem if you don't. That's on you.
And so we just have to start expanding our awareness of what's healthy and then making those healthy choices.
Dr. Willow: Absolutely. So in closing...
Leah: To be continued, this is a conversation that we'll keep exploring because it's endless.
[00:57:37] We want to hear from you!
Dr. Willow: We'd love to hear what you might be struggling with around boundaries? Like, what's challenging for you? Is it the speaking of them? Is it knowing what they actually are for you? The clarity piece? Is it knowing to hold them? Or is it that your partner isn't really hearing what you're saying? Or what is it that's really challenging you with boundaries?
And we can go deeper into that future episode.
Leah: Do you feel suffocated by someone else's boundaries? And like the freedom has just been limited tremendously? Or do you have really great tips on boundaries?
Dr. Willow: We wanna hear that too.
Leah: Please point us in directions of some great boundary work that you stumbled on.
Maybe you are even teaching it?
Please let us know in the comments some of the places that you've learned boundaries that you think we should become aware of too.
Dr. Willow: Yes.
Leah: Love, love, love.
SxR Announcer: Thanks for tuning in. If the hosts seem to know what they were talking about, that's because they do. Leah Piper is a Tantric sex master coach and a positive psychology facilitator.
SxR Announcer: Dr. Willow Brown is both a Chinese and functional medicine doctor and a Taoist sexology teacher. Don't forget your comments, likes, subscribes, and suggestions matter. Let's realize this new world together.